Podcast: Aching for Manhood

Josh
I remember this time when I was a kid, I remember a good friend of mine, a girl who’s a good friend of mine had just started dating something. This is middle school. So I was probably like seventh grade, maybe eighth grade. She just started dating somebody. And I didn’t know the guy very well. But I remember saying to her, we’re sitting in health class, and she’s sharing I got this new boyfriend. And I said to her, hey, that’s great. I’m happy for you. Be careful, though, because men are jerks, guys are jerks. So as I got older, I can remember reflecting like, what what was going on for that little 13 year old kid? That would say that about his gender? They would say that about like other guys. And that was felt like he didn’t fit that category. Like, you know, I’m, I’m not like a guy like, so anyway. Hey, today, we’re gonna talk about manhood. We’re in talk about good manhood, cultural expressions, man, what does it mean to be a man? Is it a good thing to be a man? Masculine wounds. All that in a whopping 2025 minutes, we’ll see where we go. But we’ve given kit Elmer the day off, and our Podcast Producer, Matthew Snider, and I are just gonna have a conversation about that. And we’ll get some things right, we’ll get some things wrong. If you’re a woman listening, we invite you to listen in because I think it’ll give you at least a little bit of a window into at least what a couple guys think about manhood.

Josh
So Matthew, what what kind of stories do you like when you think about yourself as a kid or some moments as a kid that kind of touched you in some manhood way or touched your manhood for good? or for ill? What kinds of things come to mind?

Matthew Snider
Hmm, yeah, so I’ve got two stories, especially one that relates to what you just spoke about. I’ll bring that one up first. And then I’ve got a second one. sports related. But as you were speaking, I remembered for a time for years, even through high school, I just had a lot of girlfriends, not like relationships, but just friends that were girls. Like, I didn’t hang out with guys. Because in my head, I knew what they were thinking. And I didn’t want to hang out with people that thought that way. Like, I’m a guy. I know what I think they’re worse than me. So I don’t want to hang out with them. There was this judgment that it’s like, Ah, I know what’s going on in my head. So I know what’s going on in their head. I’m not sure that I want to kind of be part of that. We’re like, What do you mean, what was in their head? I mean, all sex. You know, masturbation, like just kind of like slimy, nasty stuff. So you wanted to distance distance yourself from that? I did. And I would say that I did that incorrectly. Okay, isolating myself. Okay, for sure. But yeah, just as you had said that I was like, Oh, wow. Um, that was for years. Yeah. And it’s not like I had an idea of what a man was or who I was even as a growing young man. It just not. It’s not that. Yeah, there was something innate that I was like, oh, yikes. So I think I want to hear your other story.

Josh
But I think that, like, I think that one commonality, and I don’t know that all men experienced that. I know, they haven’t. But it sounds like but for both of us, there was some sense that we had of we wanted to be good guys, good men. And we had a suspicion about other guys that they weren’t. Yeah. And I know some of that was rooted in experiences I had with guys growing up places where I felt diminished, weakened, ridiculed. I know some of it happened from even in my family where I saw some significant men in my family. And when was kind of around the aftermath among significant women in my family and felt like man that I don’t want to hurt women like, like, like this guy hurt women. So anyway, so what’s your other story?

Matthew Snider
Yeah, so Middle School. We just had an amazing neighborhood full of kids to play. So we played any game possible Capture the Flag, but every Wednesday every Saturday, we would play football down in our park. We had a neighborhood park, it was great. I mean, it was 11 on 11. Like, watch out, come home with blood or grass stains all over your face like it was. It was great. And I remember one game specifically, I tackled the younger brother of one of our neighbors, and it was a fair tackle. And I brought him down hard and like Welcome to football. So I thought and I got up and had no idea but he just kind of blindsided me and pushed me over his the older brother, the older brother did, yeah. And it was this weird, like injustice that rose up in me that it’s like, well, wait a second. I didn’t do anything wrong. But I got up and I was so infuriated with this injustice that I started crying like really bad. And of course you know, Fallout happens at the bus stop the next day or at school. It’s like, Hey, what’s up? We’ll have we’ll see why you cry and cry like a girl. You know, all those, you know, good, friendly things that the boys rise say, Yeah. And it’s sort of like, well, wait a second, like, I didn’t do anything wrong. But that’s now me as a 43 year old that yeah, has worked through that. But as a kid as a kid, what was that? So the fallout of that did what to you? Like? How did that what was your sense, as you’re at the bus stop and hearing that from now? Oh, you totally shrink away, you totally shrink away. It’s like, I’m not gonna say anything. Because if I say something that may trigger what happened yesterday. So I’m not going to say anything. I’m going to back down, I’m going to be less than myself. And, you know, for years, I think it’s impacted me. Even Josh and I were talking offline before the podcast started that, hey, I haven’t watched a football game and 20 plus years. I don’t care about it. Like, it’s just not my game. I really enjoy soccer. And maybe that’s why maybe, yeah,

Josh
so what’s crazy about that story to me, Matthew, was thinking about it is that you you actually had you had tackled this other kid. I mean, you had you had demonstrated, I think what kind of culturally you’re in that in the on the field would feel like Yeah, yeah, that was the that was the strong guy. Yep. And then a bigger guy came along, and I think, you know, kind of puts you in your place. Yeah, quote, unquote. Yeah. So here’s, here’s something that I’ve noticed over the years. I think that and we’re going to talk about this little bit later, too. But I think that there are ways that that men strive against men for for masculinity. And it’s not a good thing. I mean, I think I think there can be a good form, like I think on the athletic field is one place. I think that men can strive against men to develop a deeper sense of manhood and strength. Yeah, healthy competition. Yeah, that can be a good thing. I think I think there’s a there’s a corner that we turn where it actually becomes almost like, there’s not room for for multiple ones of us to be strong. Like, there’s good. There’s one top dog, who’s that guy? And I mean, that was my experience growing up, like, and I was not anywhere close. I mean, I was Yeah, I kind of sat on the bench, hoping that, you know, the top dog wouldn’t see me and pick on me. That was kind of the way that I mean, I think a lot of my childhood, but yeah, but I don’t think that’s God’s design. I mean, so when we think about becoming men, with varying degrees of athletic ability, various sizes, various strengths, I think we’re actually meant to be in it together, not to all become the same, you know, the same strength, but to help each other with our strength. And I think that’s, I think that’s a that’s a picture of masculinity and manhood that I don’t think we see much of.

Matthew Snider
And is that a definition problem? Like, when you think of like, God’s designed for man, like what comes to mind? Like, what do you see in your mind’s eye? Or? Yeah, what does culture say to you?

Josh
Man? So I don’t I don’t know if I don’t know what God’s design is in. I mean, I, I have some ideas, but I don’t want to say like, Yep, this is it. I do think there’s something about strength, physical strength can be that’s one expression of it. But I think I don’t think it has to be I mean, I think about some of the men that I know who physically are not very, they’re not very big men. Yeah, you know, one of them is probably, you know, all of five foot four. Another as is taller, but very skinny, very slight man, and probably in cultural standards might even come across effeminate. But both these guys have an internal strength of resolve, a fearlessness about how they approach the world. Yeah, a willingness to stand up and say what’s true and very, very difficult situations, that they just have my respect, and I think that they’re active. Yeah. And even when I think about, like, you know, like, physical strength being an attribute of manhood, I think, only if it’s associated with with goodness and courage. Yeah, because I know some big men I experienced a big man as a kid who like they were jerks. They were in you know, there, they it was a kind of a toxic masculinity. It wasn’t a wasn’t a good masculinity. And it seemed almost like they were just always trying to prove themselves. And that doesn’t feel very manly to me, like, you’re always trying to prove yourself, what’s really going on inside, you know, in your own sense of man. And there’s not a solidity inside that you can kind of stand and be confident without, you know, needing to convince everybody in the room that you’re the guy you know, yeah. What comes to mind for you? I mean, that strength is one but what what kinds of things come to mind for you?

Matthew Snider
Yeah, I mean, like, right off the bat, like when you’re talking about strength, like I think of, you know, this day and age, it’s all about comic book heroes. Like I read comics as a kid, but like, Captain America has always been that guy. Thor’s always been that guy. They’re huge. They’re muscular. But there’s a strength about them. That is comforting. Not scary. Why is it comforting because they’re going to protect you? Yeah, they’re like that’s their goal. Yeah, it’s for it’s yeah, I’m going to use the strength for good not for bad as maybe this older brother intended when he pushed me like he’s like Well, I’m bigger. I’m stronger. I’m gonna take my anger out on this little kid. Yeah. You know, I think vulnerability is huge. When I see a man masculine or not in the world’s eyes, muscular or not, you know, like you had said a tall lanky guy or a shorter portly gentleman, like if they’re vulnerable with their feelings. If they’re in touch with their inner Who am I identity? Like, that’s really attractive? That’s really manly, in my mind, I think of protection, providing pastoring? Like, how, how do you do that for your family? For your friends? For those around you? Like how do you steward friendships? How do you mentor other men? How do you? How are you vulnerable with your wife and your kids? Some of that outweighs the muscular strength by tons and tons in my mind.

Josh
So so let me go back to vulnerability for a second because I, my knee jerk response to that is, I don’t think that’s typically seen or thought of, or felt as a masculine thing. And I would say that a lot of men actually feel like in the places they feel vulnerable. They’re like, I think they might equate that with, I’m not very manly here. And, but at the same time, who’s lie as well, this would mean at the same time, like when I think about my own experience of being around men who are willing to be vulnerable, including men that I really look up to, it actually does something from my own sense of strength and belonging in the company, man, I was with a group of men recently, some really well respected men in our area leaders, people that people listened to. And, and it just so happened that each one of them, and we didn’t plan it, but just different guys, were just sharing areas of vulnerability areas of insecurity. Yeah. And, and one of them said, at the end of the meeting, he said, he’s like, you know, we’re not who people think we are. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t because there’s a hiding or opposing it was he was just kind of chuckling at like, people think that, you know, there’s something amazing going on, we’re, we’re just people, and, and I walked away from the meeting, I don’t even know all that happened in it. But I walked into the meeting with a deep, deeper sense of like, just belonging and confidence, and then not because I mean, I was there with my vulnerability, too. So clearly, there’s something what you’re saying is what I’m saying. I think there’s something about vulnerability. That’s, uh, that. That is a gift. Yeah, men can give each other. I also liked the pastoring. Protecting, providing. I mean, there’s something that resonates with me. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t just mean that for, you know, for married guys. I think for single guys, too. Absolutely. There’s when when men are generous, I think there’s something there’s something there. Yeah. With time with resources, like with themselves have abs? Absolutely, absolutely. So I think, I think maybe one, one area that we probably begin to talk about is, I think we’ve seen a lot of fallen versions of masculinity, live in a culture that is just rife with expressions of masculinity that are just broken, self seeking, self serving, power hungry, which I tend to think of as again, guys striving for something. So I think I think all men experience some kind of brokenness in their masculinity, something in their, in their childhood, something just in their experience of living in a fallen world where they have some deep sense of I’m not the man that I want to be, or I’m not yet the man I want to be, or I’m not completely the man that I want to be. Yeah. Yeah. And I could be I mean, you know, if you’re listening, and you’re like, Man, I’m pretty good there. Like, I, you know, to two questions. One is, you know, gosh, would you reach out to us and let us know how you did it? For sure. But the other is, you know, maybe take a look a little deeper. Maybe there’ s, is there any area of your life where you’re like, Yeah, well, in that area, I’m not quite as strong or as, as as much of a man as I think I want to be.

Matthew Snider
And I would even add to that, like, if you’re stuttering or hesitating, when you hear Josh, go dig a little deeper. I would add that to a list of manliness that you’re in touch with who you are, who God has designed you to be like, if that pauses you a little bit then I would challenge you like that’s a good thing. Go Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I was even thinking just this strength. We’re here in Baltimore. So our football team that I never watches the Ravens but we had a running back so be careful what you say exactly. i His name was Ray. I don’t remember his last name, but he was on TV for not years, but months because he knocked his wife out in an elevator. And it’s like there’s nothing about that picture. That is manly, right. All that shows to me who’s a little further along in my journey towards manliness is like that’s a weakness and a broken man. That scared of something. Yeah. That is distorted is twisted. So why

Josh
Josh, what is like a true masculine? Well, it’s limitless. Let’s talk about that for a minute because I that that picture, because I don’t I think there are probably a lot of men listening myself included. I’ve not hit my wife, but I know there are ways that I’ve used my strength my sighs in ways that have not been helpful for people like, like, like, when I have a stressful day and I go home and my kids are are noisy and messy and whatever, like and I yell like, there’s a strength in my voice. Yeah, that God’s given me. And that’s not what he gave it to me for. Yeah. As opposed to what you’ve described before about, you know, Thor, Captain America like, you know, when Yeah, when the dragons at the door and I raised my voice like, that’s what it’s for. Not to to overpower somebody weaker than me, it’s, it’s to come up against a power that’s overpowering somebody else. And so I think there are three ways that we kind of take broken masculinity. One is we just quit, we say, you know, yeah, I don’t want to be a man. And I think that’s kind of what that 13 year old boy, when I was like, hey, guys are jerks. I think there’s some level. I’m not I’m not gonna go on that trajectory. Like, yeah, but then we end up like Homer Simpson, or Peter Pan, you know, which is kind of like the eternal boy. He’s no respect, you know, like, you know, somebody else got to lead things, you know, it’s got to provide I’m, I’m kind of the idiot, you know, I’m going to sit in the basement playing Nintendo all the time.

Josh
More, I’m just not, I’m not gonna get a job not getting married. I think there’s a lot of that culturally. Yeah, I think the other the second thing we do is we try to strive for it. And we, we, we end up like just trying to be successful in some way or another, trying to convince others and probably more so trying to convince ourselves that we are not absolutely so you know, become the CEO make enough money drive the right car. The problem with that, is that that those questions never answer the deep question of am I man enough, because if you if you make enough money, well, you can lose your money. If you have a successful job, well, you can lose that job, or you can get older. If you if you look great physically, like someday you’re going to get smaller, you’re going to encounter something physically where you can’t lift the same weights anymore. And then the third way, I think, is that we tried to take it from others. And we’ve talked about that a little bit. Yeah. So either take it from others, like on the in competition, that becomes more than just this competition to become something personal, it’s about me and you like your company, so much try to tear you down in your manhood. So that can feel stronger in my manhood, or, I’m going to, I’m going to, you know, beat up people who are younger or smaller than me, or that are weaker than me. And that’s going to make me feel like more of a man. And I don’t think that works.

Josh
Or the other way that we do it is through sexual conquest. We try to sleep around with enough other people that somehow we feel like, you know, that makes me a man. And I think there’s even something there that is pretty endemic in our culture. But none of those work. Those don’t really make us men. And I think I think something in our soul knows it, which is why those things can become so addictive and so overpowering. And so compulsive, that’s why we have workaholism, sex all ism. Yeah. That’s why why people get stuck in a job they don’t love for years and years and years. Yeah. So what is striving look like to go back to striving, I heard quitting. I heard striving. And then I heard you know, like, abuse of power. Was that the third? Yeah, yeah. Trying to steal from somebody. Yeah. And just try and steal it. So like striving, like, there’s good striving? What is good striving look like? Yeah, I mean, so I think I think the distinctive would be what what am I what am I working so hard for? And who am I working so hard for? Absolutely. And what is this? What am I really trying to achieve? And so, the striving I’m talking about is, like, you know, the days that I can’t stop working, because I’ve got to prove something to somebody and I’m afraid of disappointing somebody like That’s me trying to get something from my sense of well being right. Yeah. As opposed to I’m working really hard because this is going to help another person. This is a worthwhile project. This is part of how God’s gifted me to work like Yeah, yeah, I mean, because other I mean, if we don’t work hard, let’s say I don’t mean striving does not mean working hard like we’re created to work hard yeah. And and even when sometimes when we work beyond what we think we can we find that we can we actually have more innocent we than we imagined that helps us to grow.

Matthew Snider
So yeah, even I mean pre fall, God gave Adam work to do in the garden. So like work at its purest essence is good. Yeah, it’s really good. So what would you say? What’s what’s, how would you separate? That kind of unhealthy striving for manhood and then just working hard as men like what would be some of the distinct differences between those two in your mind? I think the first thing that comes to mind is that a lot of us men, and I’ve known at least one person that took his life after his wife passed away is that the identity in something was too much So I think a lot of men, like, hey, like, what do you do for a living? Like that’s every man asks another man, hey, what do you do? What do you do? First question, right? Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, I think some of it is unhealthy. But like, that’s like the last question that I care about, like, because that’s not who you are. But I think culture, I think men think that’s what we are. That’s it’s what you do in life. So when you lose a job, it’s like, oh, my gosh, I don’t know who I am. Because I’ve been an IT guy. I’ve been a marketer. I’ve been a podcast, right? I’ve been a coach, like I’ve been a mentor. And when I can’t do that, who’s Josh, who’s Matthew? And the world is just turned upside down. So I think that’s the linchpin really, between striving in a good way and striving in a bad way is seeing yourself as that your identity is wrapped up in how I do and that’s really, really good. I like that.

Josh
Yeah. So the fall Genesis three, yeah. The what happened in the as the curse kind of was released into humanity for Adam, was now by the sweat of his brow. He’s going to produce thorns and thistles. It’s associated with his work. And so I think that what we’re describing isn’t as a result of the fall, that we tend to take our identity and our success with the things that we put our hand to. Yeah, it’s a deep rooted, nasty form that we need to dig out from under. It’s like, I’m Matthew, I am not a Podcast Producer. That’s what I do. Yeah. But that’s not who I am. Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Matthew Snider
I also come back to the pastor, provider and protector. Like I think if you think of a pastor, in this day and age, there’s lots of pastors that have been in the news for the wrong reasons. When you think of a protector, like there’s men that do not protect, that are strong enough and willing, but they don’t do it, right. And when you think of a pastor, or not a pastor or a provider, there are men and I would go as far as like my dad and his age bracket, 7080 year olds, they thought that they were providing by bringing home money. And that was all that they knew. And that’s fine. You can only give what you can give. But that I would say is not how you provide for your family. Well, that’s one expression, but that’s one expression. But if that’s it, if you’re absent, right, yeah, right, right. There’s something missing there. That is not the full picture of providing or pastoring or, or protecting at all.

Josh
So what you’re you’re putting your finger on these really good qualities of manhood. Yeah, but but they’re, they can all have a shadow side to them. Absolutely. There’s the following with with everything without saying, let’s turn the corner. Yeah, let’s talk about if not these ways, if this is not how you become whole complete, healthy man. Yeah. in God’s economy, then how do we do it? Yeah. How do we get there? Yeah. I’ve got some ideas. Yeah, well, let’s hear I’m still in the path. You know, I’m still Still we all are. But I think I think first thing is we’ve got to acknowledge that we that it’s something that we need, and something that we want to the whole conversation, we’ve been making this assumption, that being a man is a really good thing. And growing manhood is something very worthwhile. And every single man on the planet, whether older, younger, big, small, tall, short, black, white, wherever married single, like every single man should be seeking to be on the path of growing to be more whole man. And that assumption comes from Genesis one because our manhood is part of how we bear God’s image. Yeah, absolutely. The beginning, when God created the six and half days of creation, and then the second half of day six, he says, now we’re gonna create mankind in our image. And the one descriptor that he first says, that’s what we’re gonna do, they’re gonna rule and reign. Yeah. But the first descriptor, the first adjective is that we’re gonna create a male and female. So there’s something in a woman’s femininity and her womanhood that bears God’s image on the earth, there’s something in a man’s manhood his masculinity that bears God’s image on the earth. So to continue to want to see that reclaimed is something I think that Jesus came to do so.

Josh
So, yeah, so step one, I think is acknowledged we have a need, like both culturally but also personally like, so that’s part of why I looked back and go Wait, what was going on me at 13? was gonna be a 16. Yeah, what was I looking for in the in the porn that I looked at? Why am I working so late? Why am I barking my kids? Like, I need something in my deep in this deep place inside of me. Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s one is acknowledging. Yeah. Yeah. The second thing I’d say is, is that we need we need to seek it from there’s going to sound cliche for our Christian listeners, but we need to seek it from God. Because I think the culture has a lot of mixed up messages about what it means to be a man I think, in our in our neighborhoods, and our experiences with other men. We have a lot of mixed up ideas of what it means to be man like, yeah, even that vulnerability thing you talked about. I think that there’s so many men’s groups that get together. Yeah, they just do not know how to be very vulnerable. Yeah.

Josh
It’s a, it’s a Christian men’s group. And really what I’m gonna do is we’re going to come and we’re going to show that we know how to give the right answers to each other. Right? As opposed to guys, I’m gonna, I’m gonna be vulnerable that you know, I have a need right now I’m really dropping the ball here, right? And for other guys to not just take that and go, Oh, let me give you the scripture verses that you know that we’re gonna try and fix it. Just listen to me. But let him Let him be vulnerable. Yeah, you be vulnerable by by leaving that, that in the room without trying to soften. We’re trying to fix other guys. We’re trying to fix each other’s men. Not because we really care. But because you’re uncomfortable with this guy being so vulnerable. Amen. We’re uncomfortable with the broken places. And I think that’s in part because if he’s broken, like that’s gonna leave room for like, you know, me to be broke. I don’t want that. Yeah. So that brings us back to number one. But yeah, but so we so we need, we need to seek like to not be looking at kind of the status quo and say, That’s what it means to be man, we need to be seeking the Lord about it. Yeah, I think the other reason for that is because there are so many different kinds of men. And so, you know, like, when I first got married, my wife is a, she’s a gifted leader. And she’s great at making decisions. She’s kind of a cheat. When when crisis hits, there’s something there’s a mechanism that snaps in her where she just kind of like, she’s on. And she’s really, really good in those situations. It’s amazing to see.

Josh
I’m not that way. When crisis hits. I like I kind of panic, you know, yeah, I don’t like that. And myself, but it’s true. Yeah, we first got married, we started seeing this dynamic. I was so humiliated. I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, I can’t, I’m not, you know, I’m not enough of a man to be good husband, my wife. Yeah, I remember praying about it one morning. And I was like, Lord, what is this some kind of joke? Like, did you? Are you trying to humiliate me? Like, how do I deal with this? And his response was so gracious, I’d kind of caught me off guard. He was like, his response was, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t trust her with anybody else. But you know, if there’s something that he explained it all but he’s just like, Josh, you have something as a man, that the strong good decision maker wife needs. Yeah. And I want to call that out and you so that she can be blessed and protected by that? Yeah, absolutely. And she would, she’d be able to tell you better than I can. What that’s been for her but and then the last thing is, and we’ve kind of gotten after this a little bit, but we need the company of men. I don’t get immunity. I don’t think we’ve become men in isolation. That’s a myth. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, there’s even there’s like an undergirding that I’m, I’m hearing throughout our conversation of like intentionality. Like is really just, well, I mean, you need to be intentional to strive, whether or not it’s good or bad, you need to be intentional to protect and to provide, you need to be intentional to find other men. You need to be intentional to look inward, and be self aware. You need to be intentional to kind of lean into those hard areas, with your wife, with your girlfriend with single friends with people that have hurt you in the past. Like there’s an intentionality that like you need to know. Yeah. Because the natural flow in our culture in the 21st century, and maybe just in the fallen world is you’re not going to become all a man that you’re made to be without some level of this. I’m gonna go after this. Yeah, and we don’t mean to say that. I don’t think you’re saying I’m not saying like, this is just something that is all up to you. Like, no, no, no, no, but like,

Matthew Snider
I think as men do we get hungry after things. So like, what does that Healthy Hunger look like? When you strive towards masculinity, towards healthy manhood towards healing towards the love of your life towards your work, like in a good healthy way? There’s a good striving there’s a good intentionality that like you need to lean in. There’s a an undergirding that’s like, there’s a passion that God has put in us to seek out. Like, truth and wholeness.

Josh
And men, I think the way I’d put it is, I’d say, if you find in yourself, even a little seed of I, I wish I could be more in my manhood I wish I could I could be more of a man for the people around me or whatever that looks like. Even even you know, hey, I’m watching the Marvel movies. And man, I wish I look like that guy. Well, I may never look like that guy. But what? What’s going on in me? Like, what? What’s the deeper meaning of that stirs in me when I see that guy? Yeah.

Josh
If we can ignore like, I think there’s something in that. That is just, it’s the genesis of because God’s placed in us the reality that we are men created to be image bearers of God in our manhood. And we’re meant to experience that and feel that as we walk on the earth, like, yeah, so what would it be like, if we walked into are in a room full of men, and felt a sense both in our hearts and our minds and our bodies? A sense of, it’s good that I’m here, and it’s good to be a man. Yeah. What would it be like to walk into a room of women and have a sense of, it’s good to be a man? Yeah, not as it’s better to be a man to be a woman. Like I think women should be the same way we walk into a room and be like, it’s good to be a woman. Yeah, but I think that including bodily like it’s my manly body is good. My feminine body if a woman is good, I think honestly, walking into that room, like you’ll turn heads, and I’m not talking sexually, but like women will see that strength. And that just authenticity. And you same with the guys and will, too. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you walk into a room like guys will notice you if you walk in strong and not not overbearing, but like just true healthy. Yeah, what’s that guy got? And the challenge is, I think part of the challenge is, is that if that’s what you’re trying to do, like that, ain’t it? That is not the goal. A gentleman like the guy was talking about before that the skinny guy with who can stand for truth, like, yeah, you know, I didn’t I don’t think I would say that. I noticed him when he walked in the room. But when I heard him speak, when I’ve heard him speak, and I’ve read what he’s written, I’m like, This guy humbles me. I want to be like, solidity. Yeah, yeah. And it even comes back to the constant. I think we had talked about earlier just how media kind of portrays us men or healthy men in all different ways. So you’ve got Thor and Captain America, but then you have those commercials, where the dad’s really dirty working on the truck. And then it’s just a slow pan. And then there’s this precious little boy, that’s learning from his dad. And I’m like men, like that’s what it looks like to be poured into. And to pour into other men in like a great, healthy way. What happens in you when you see a commercial like that? Oh, like, I probably need to turn it off. Because it it, it brings about an ache that has been missed for a while that is now starting to cultivate now is starting to be loved, and now has a direction. Well, if I if I could, if I could turn your own words back on you. I can I know that. You know this, Matthew. I do. It sounds like you not turn it off, but lean in there. Absolutely. So the same thing happened to me. I was at the end of the Superbowl this last year. Patrick mahomes Was he had a terrible first half and that’s terrible. He but he made some bad plays and the truncate the story, but the interviewer basically said, like, hey, so you’re really playing crappy the first the first half, two interceptions, that’s not like you.

Josh
And,and then things turn around what happened? And his response, he said, he said, my coach, my coach told me, trust your eye, trust your arm, keep putting the ball up, don’t quit, you got this. And, and it was interesting, because as I heard that, there’s a 24, to 24 year old guy playing the NFL playing the Super Bowl. And I certainly felt something for him. But I also just feel some kind of turn over inside of me. And when I stopped to kind of paid attention, I was like, that’s what I want. I need a voice like that in my life. Because there are areas of my life right now where I feel like as a as a crappy minute, crappy first half. I hope it’s just the first time Yeah, and I’m not sure I can pull it out. And I long for somebody to say Josh and those areas, Josh, trust your I trust your hand. And even the voice of our heavenly Father, Josh, trust me. Keep putting the ball up there. Like you got this. And it’s two parts really. So one, there’s the coach, there’s the mentor that speaks truth. But then there’s also the student that can accept it as teachable and actually hears and receives it. Well, I think men overall speak specifically for myself, like receiving love. Receiving this. Vulnerability is hard sometimes, like, it’s just overwhelming. Like, it’s so good. It’s so right. But it’s hard to receive. It’s like, I’m not worthy of this. So again, need to lean in to understand like, well, one, why do I feel like I’m unworthy? And why is it so hard to receive love from God? Or a free vehicle from a friend? Or, you know, a really good long hug from a man? Yeah, like, you just need that sometimes. So like, why why is that hard? Sometimes? It’s almost like, like we are we willing and this goes back to the community of men thing and relation with God thing? Yeah. It’s almost like we have to take make the choice to say, because I relate with that. We also have the choice that you know what, I’m going to choose to trust a voice that’s different than that inner voice that says that I’m not enough or that I can’t do this. Yeah, or that I won’t be able to get there. I’m going to choose to trust somebody outside of myself instead of just trusting that place, which I think goes back to so much of like, Father wound stuff and our experiences kids and absolute vows and things like that. Yeah, time for a bit.

Matthew Snider
I forget where it is in the Bible. It’s Luke or John specifically. But the Lord is saying to Peter, like I’m praying for you, as your faith strengthened so he’s he’s kind of worried that Peter is not worried but he knows that Peters faith may struggle at times, as we know, he’s right before before the crucifixion, like you’re gonna correct and follow up. I prayed for you. I prayed for you and as you fall as you fall, so like in one sentence, he’s saying, I’m praying for you that you don’t fall but as you do turn around And, and what does that end with? strengthen your brothers.

Matthew Snider
Huge. Like that’s our call like we’re broken, but we need to be under somebody Peter was under Jesus. And Jesus said turn around after you fall after you get up and strengthen your brothers. That’s beautiful. Yeah, there’s our community. How do we get there?

Josh
Alright so good conversation. I think we’ve covered a lot of ground left a lot of questions unanswered. If your main listening and you want to contribute something to the conversation or ask a question or want the conversation continue in some way like, you know, let us know but hear this from us like we are for you. We’re with you. We’re on this journey. Absolutely. And if you’re a woman listening, thanks for listening in.

Josh
Carrie, Carrie, what you’ve heard with, with with grace and we hope it’s blessed you too and your own journey towards becoming a more whole and full woman. So Jesus, we just want to stop at the end of this and turn to you. You are a you are the best picture of a man. Lord, your death on a cross was so full of courage and giving an initiative and pastoring and providing protecting.

Josh
You are the life giver. You’re the source of all things and the sustainer of all things and how you gave so much even to the point of death is humbling.

Josh
Or Jesus make us men like you and pray all these things in your name, amen.