Josh 0:02
So one of the things I remember that Alan Menninger, who was the founder of regeneration, told me years ago is that of all the people who came to our ministry, the ones he felt, were suffering and struggling the most were parents. And I found that to be true in many cases, it’s a parenting is hard. And when your parents or when your kids are struggling something, being a parent is even harder, as the parent we aspire to be. And there’s also the parent that we are. They’re the kids that we the things that we longed for, for our kids and the good things our kids are really going through. And so we’ve been really excited in this ministry to begin serving parents are some of the things that we’re doing. And as we have we’ve come come in contact with reality that many parents wrestling with kids who struggle with anxiety, anxiety has gone through the roof for so many kids and not we’re not even talking about just kids who have you know diagnosable anxiety disorders but, but for for all sorts of kids. And so, and especially right now, in this current situation, a lot of kids are really feeling the uncertainty of the moment. Parents are feeling cranky about it. So this has become a more important issue.

Kit 1:26
So we’re really grateful to have our friend and our guest today, Rebecca Baker, Rebecca, you and I’ve been getting to know each other over the last four years. And it’s, it’s been a joy to do that. And I’ve been impressed with your devotion and your expertise, as it relates to teens and parents. And so I’m really grateful that you’re here to help us talk about this anxiety is a big issue for many teens, and it’s really challenging for well intentioned parents. So, to get us started, Rebecca is an lcsw w with a master’s degree in clinical social work from University of Maryland. She has an educational background, it’s very varied music, theology, and philosophy. She works for the Catholic Charities in the Baltimore city school system, and she provides family therapy. She provides individual teen and child therapy, as well as parent therapy and group therapy. So one place to start I would just like to say Rebecca, with your experience, you know, you work with individual teens, you work with parents, you work with families, where would you start in this whole idea of teens and anxiety in terms of offering help to parents?

Rebecca 2:44
I love this question, because it’s not where people think I will oftentimes when a kid comes into my office, I’m a school based therapist, and a kid comes into my office and their parents are really encouraging them to talk with me and things and I do talk with the kid, of course, but I work with the parents a lot because the the issues or the struggles that the kids are having, the parents have so much access to that at home. And and they’re struggling to without a help without to help their kid. And most of the time they come in and they say, Okay, how do I how do I fix this? How do I help my kid? How do I make this not uncomfortable for them, etc. And, and where we spend a lot of work with the parents is just being able to help the kid express themselves and invite the kid to share and to and to share their emotions and to share their struggles with the parents. And I tell my parents all the time, that’s not an easy fix, but you gotta just sit there with the kid for a little bit first, before before moving into into solutions, which Is what they want.

Kit 4:02
Yeah, it’s such a that’s such good counsel. And it just resonates so deeply with me as a parent and all the mistakes I made. Because you’re right, it’s so hard just to sit and listen, when you want to fix it, you want to make it better. You don’t want them to feel what they’re feeling. And that’s just not helpful. So, so listen, listen, listen, just like that’s a big thing. You’re saying.

Rebecca 4:26
It comes from such a place of love that they want to fix it and make it easy on their kids. But, but to take that opportunity to really equip their kids to to be able to work through their own problems. And And so much of that starts by just by just sitting with them. And sometimes that’s all the kid needs to be able to talk about it.

Josh 4:48
So I can almost hear some some parents listening going well, yeah, that’s nice. But my kids don’t talk to me. And so what what do you say to a parent who’s like, I know my kids struggling, but they won’t talk. Talk to me how do you help parents are find that to be true.

Rebecca 5:02
You invite invite, invite invite. And for all the shots that you take, you might get a few and a bunch of mess. And there’s the there’s the temptation that if the kid shuts you down or blocks you off that to throw your hands up and to let them walk off, but as as the, as the parents and the adults in the room, we got to create a kind of environment where the kid feels safe talking about it, and maybe it’s just little stuff. Or maybe it’s you know, when they when they say hey, look at this cool thing that I’m doing, look at it and pay and pay attention to those small things so that when some of the bigger stuff comes up, they know that that you’re gonna be there and know that they can talk to you.

Josh 5:49
So can you can you give us some kind of compare and contrast so like, like we said about creating a safe space so that your as you invite your kids, you know, whatever it is one at a time. One out of nine times that they might actually open up. So compare and contrast like what what makes for safety versus well intentioned parents who inadvertently create environment that doesn’t feel safe to a kid.

Rebecca 6:16
It honestly kind of goes back to the first thing I was saying, of being able to listen, even in the small stuff first. Cuz I think what, what inadvertently happens is that we tell our kids all the time, don’t worry, like, you can talk to me about anything like you can always come to me like I’m always here for you, and that’s true. And then, but if they come to us and say, Hey, I’m feeling stressed about this, or I fill in the blank, and we say, Oh, well, don’t worry about that. Or like, Don’t don’t don’t let that get under your skin. And that’s so that’s so well intended that comes from such a place of love for our kids and not wanting them to feel that way. But I think what the back message is, is that it’s not okay to feel that way. So too Be able to to sit with them there and say, oh, what what is that you’re feeling like can we put a name to it? Like you’re feeling stressed? Is that like, or you’re feeling angry? Like, can we can we put some more words to it? And, and how does it feel in your body like it has your stomach feeling or your muscles tense and you know you’re feeling kind of fidgety? Is that is that what is that is that stress is that excitement. So being able to name it and connect it with what they’re feeling in their body. And then something I work with the teens on a lot, but pass this on to the parents too, is to be able to give it a number. So we just use like a simple one to 10 scale. And so to be able to say what they’re feeling to name it and then put it on that scale, in hopes that they can they can catch it a little bit earlier before it gets up to that 10 but, but catch it more when it’s like a four or a six.

Josh 7:56
So in other words, you’re you’re kind of saying like your kid is identical I’m feeling stressed and you say, you know, on a scale of one to 10 how stressed you just giving them more room to explore the fullness of what they’re feeling without jumping in to try to fix it, change it, etc, etc. What I like about that I found as a parent, I think this is not a an idea original to me. But oftentimes when I’m trying to, quote unquote, alleviate my kids suffering, what I’m really trying to do is make myself feel better, because it’s hard for me when they’re hurting. When they’re anxious, I feel anxious. When they’re sad, I feel sad. And so part of part of the challenge in listening and sitting and even giving them more room to describe the state that they’re in, is opening myself up to the reality that I that may mean more for me as well. more difficulty for me.

Unknown Speaker 8:50
Yeah, so true.

Kit 8:53
I like what you’re saying about this idea of sitting with them listening, being calm, you know, so often our Like you’re saying gesture, we just get carried away with our emotions. But when you say that just listening and giving them attention is what they’re looking for. I think I rarely remember that. And that are paying attention to them and attending to them. without pushing without fixing is so helpful. And then you also talk about, like, what you pay attention to, will grow. And so we know when to prepare for those moments when they’ll come and feel safe with you means that you also like catch them when they’re being good and talk to them. But pay attention to them when things aren’t wrong. kind of builds that that that trust relationship for when they do need to come to you. Can you say a little bit about that?

Rebecca 9:46
Yes, I it’s so easy to turn our attention to the things that aren’t going well in our own lives and our kids lives and the world around us. For example. To be able to find those moments where your kid did did something well or was able to catch themselves more like a four on that scale, you know, and do something more helpful, or to catch them getting curious about something or interested, or trying something new, to be able to point that out and shine a light on it and say, I see that and I see you and I love it. And it’s as simple as that. I say, right, but but it takes training for ourselves to to, to have our eyes looking for those like and like I love that person in Zephaniah where talks about God singing over us with the light. So doing that with our kids finding finding those moments and shining a light on it and and by doing that Showing how important it is, with with giving it your attention. Yeah. That’s the difference between knowing something in your head and and feeling it. So by showing your kid that with your attention, you’re not only telling him that, that’s good, and you love seeing that, but you’re showing it to them too.

Kit 11:24
It’s an invitation to put the phone down, isn’t it? Just, you know, just my kids when I’m in the middle of something, and they they’re like, I can’t believe I do this because I still want to give my children attention. But often it’s not convenient. I’m in the middle of something, I’ve got to even like working at home, I’ve got a deadline or something. But when you put the phone down and actually stop as often as you can, and attend to them, whatever it is that’s going on that I just think that builds those builds that trust for the moments when there’s hard things to talk about. So I appreciate that.

Josh 12:02
You really you’re describing this, I think what some people have called a ministry of presence, and the, the picture I get is kind of the, with, whether it’s a good thing or a hard thing, or a good hard thing, the I get the picture of kind of a, you know, parents that have face to face with their kid kind of like coming next to them, and helping hold whatever it is that the kid is holding and, and who doesn’t want that, who doesn’t want somebody who’s willing just to kind of take up some of the weight that we’re carrying, and, and hold it with us without judgment without fixing it without, you know, somehow giving us the impression that it’s bad that that’s the case for us. But just like how I feel this is something that you’re carrying, and I’d like to be a part of it with you. Well tell us more about like, you know, next steps if I were listening or making some safe space for our kids talk with us things. What else in the realm of just helping our kids to talk about feelings.

Rebecca 12:58
Yeah, so be able to Being able to help them talk about it by by naming it by using that scale connecting it with how they’re feeling in their body. Then once once they kind of know what it is, and and have that space to talk about it. For some people, that’s going to be enough just being able to talk about it. But if there’s still still some things that need to be tended to, of course you can problem solve with them, after you’ve been talking about it, but I like to talk with my teens about coping in our mind and with our bodies and in community, right. So the way that we’re thinking about things and that can be a really hard one to parse out with teens and with with their parents too. And some of it just comes from all those other side conversations that you’re having that you really know know your kid and can affirm. When they’re thinking well about something. Hmm.

Kit 14:03
This is kind of this reminds me you we’ve talked about this a little bit before the Dallas Willard talks about, you know what we fill our minds with our thought affect our feelings, our feelings then transferred to our body, and then we behave. And so you you’re talking about teaching kids how to pay attention to what happens, what they think about actually impacts how they feel and act in their in their life. And then you even say more about it in terms of community. But can you unpack that a little bit for us? Because I think this could be a really helpful life skill for teens.

Rebecca 14:41
Yeah, teens. And

Kit 14:43
that’s right. Yes. Right. The

Rebecca 14:48
one thing that I look at with people is where what’s their input? Like? Where are they getting those messages from social media, from the movies that they’re watching from the friends they’re hanging out with, and that’s For us adults as well, but what are the voices in their lives? And how, how much are they turned up? And and looking at that, and is that being helpful? And is it? Is it helpful? And is it? Is it true? Is it is it getting to who you want to be? And who, and and this picture that that God is showing you of your life?

Josh 15:28
And what does it mean to? What does it mean to cope? I think I get the, we were saying about the mind, you know, so what am I thinking about? What am I allowing into my mind? What does it mean when you say, cope in your body and cope in community? Like how would you help kids understand what those things are? What do you do with that?

Rebecca 15:49
Yeah, so I feeling sometimes we get this idea that our feelings are just in one place, or they’re just in our mind, and if I can deal with what’s making me feel that way, then I won’t feel that way anymore. But the truth is we have responses, literal responses in our bodies, right? Our cortisol levels, we get a rush of adrenaline and that lives in our bodies, it stays there and we’ll find a way out one way or the other sometimes in more healthy or, or not. So healthy ways, so helping them to cope in body. Exercise is a great way to do that. I know some people hate hearing that, but that’s a really healthy way to get a lot of that energy out of your body, especially if we’re talking about anxiety, and anger. Those are feelings that have a lot of energy. So finding some some healthy ways to exert that can feel really good. But also, things like like a good belly laugh or, or a good cry. Those are body responses. too and, and a way to kind of wash out some of the feelings that you’re feeling. So incorporating the body, it can’t. It happens in the mind, but it can’t all happen, happen there.

Josh 17:14
I love that we, we we know a young woman who has wrestled a lot with anxiety and in the last year she’s she’s taken up. I guess you should take it before but she she really began to recognize with the help of some caring adults in life again, to recognize that there’s something different happening for her when she’d go swim, then affected some of the anxiety that she was feeling in positive ways. And so she even kind of watching her change the way that she talked about going to swim practice, which is really hard to do and harder than some days and others. But she began to say, I really don’t feel like going to swim, but I really want to go to swim. So it was kind of this, you know, she knew it was gonna be hard, but she really wanted it and it was it was fascinating, just to kind of see her develop because it was really developing and An inner strength as she began recognizing, like, I’m learning how to cope with or deal with or kind of walk through the anxiety that’s, that’s present in my life. So I think that what you’re saying connects to that, what? And what about community? How does that play in? That’s so good. And I think about that story that you just shared and how I imagined she was able to do that, because of sharing that with some of the caring adults or friends in her life, that they could help her along the way with that, too. And that’s what coping and community is about. We don’t do this, just in a silo, we do it with each other, especially talking about the body of Christ. Like we we can show Christ to each other by by being a type of adult that that somebody can come and talk to, or by being a type of friend that somebody can come and share some of these things with. So we do it with each other and we’re, we’re all doing it whether we’re talking about it or not.

Kit 18:59
So That makes me think of two things. One is how do we as parents invite these things with, with our kids without overly giving advice without fixing? Or how do we make it possible for them to have you mentioned a couple of times other trusted adults are how do we make it possible for them to have other people who might be able to do that better for them?

Rebecca 19:23
Yeah, I think it can be a real gift to teens, especially as they are growing up and kind of becoming their own selves, like our role as parents is going to shift. It’s not going to be as much let me swoop in and take care of it. It’s gonna be more coming alongside and saying, like, what do you want to try? How do you think this could work out and and coming alongside them then that is a that is a total shift. That and it and it grows as they grow? Right. And part part of what I think that transition can help them transition is giving them permission to seek out other people who could be a help with some of these things. And that can be really freeing for for a teen to know, oh, like I can talk to my parents, but I don’t have to talk to my parents, I can talk to these other people. And for the parents, that can be really hard, because they want to be the person who’s there, they want to be able to help their team through it. But but to be in that process with them to and say, Look at all these other people who you have in your life, at church, at school, in our neighborhood, who you can talk to if you need to, and whether the kid takes them up on that or not. That can that can be really freeing and really comforting to a team to know they have these people that they can talk to.

Kit 20:50
I would just really love to get a shot. give a shout out to that right now because I was just talking to my daughter today who’s now 21 and she gave me permission to talk a little bit about that. When she was in middle school, she met someone who was in that she met through school, a, an adult, who she came to trust. And they started meeting way back in middle school. And this was someone she wrote a very wise woman who didn’t make her ever feel judged, made her feel really safe. And they met all through the years. And that’s probably been a while since they’ve met. She just told me today that she’s been in the back of her mind. And she’s like, I really want to get together with her and talk to her about what’s going on in my life. And honestly, I just want to say what a gift that’s been to my daughter but to me because she is a trusted person that my daughter feel safe with. And she’s had such a positive impact on her in ways that I couldn’t I couldn’t play the role that she’s played in her life. So just love that.

Unknown Speaker 21:52
That’s so awesome. So

Josh 21:54
I was just talking with a guy who leads a middle, middle or high school. youth group and they’ve been doing this cold COVID-19 thing they’ve been they’ve been having calls via zoom and he was saying, these guys these young guys are opening up to him about hey, we’re in our rooms all day long working on schoolwork with our computers are experiencing a lot of sexual temptation. And what do we do and I was like, man, the fact that these guys are open up with you says so much about the trust that you’ve built with this group of guys they built with each other. And and it just reminds me of so much what you’re talking about community and creating the safe space and listening and but the other thing that comes to mind for me in all of this, whether it’s these adults or the parents is is some of what you’re describing this kind of self awareness, this ability to cope in mind, body and community. A lot of parents, like well know how to do this. And so there’s like, they’re they, they’re starting, if they’re listening to this with a will now like how do I help my son or daughter, when I’ve not really wrestled with myself for having walkthroughs myself, so What can you say to them about where they might begin?

Rebecca 23:03
You got me grinning over here. Josh, this is this is that’s so the question. I think it happens so much that we can focus on our kids and forget that the biggest way that we can teach this to them is by practicing it and, and probably learning it ourselves. I think everything that we’ve been saying today, the us as adults, we could do ourselves. I know I’ve had to learn a lot of this too, and trying to walk with people.

Josh 23:35
And I was just talking about other parents I wasn’t talking about right right. Of course, of course.

Rebecca 23:43
Yeah, everything, everything that we’re talking about today, being able to name our feelings and and even say that out loud, being able to put a number to it, finding our own ways of coping, boy do we need that because to be there for for our kids. We got to Somebody there for us some some other space. So that when we come to our kids, we can be more of a steady presence and, and be able to sit with them and that discomfort and walk with them through it. But in order to do that we got to do our own work behind the scenes or err on the side.

Kit 24:19
Yeah, you can’t give away but you don’t have right. Yeah, hard to lead a child if you’re if you’re actually haven’t done your own work. And when we first started doing PG that was one of the things parents said to us was, well, we came for kids, but we realized that I have things I need to work on. And they didn’t, you know, they really didn’t realize it. So it can be a great wake up call to be a parent to say, oh, gosh, what do I want it? What do I want to work on so that I can actually pass it along? So how do you how do you encourage parents that way? Cuz I know sometimes you get the opportunity to meet with the team, but also with the parents even as a family. How do you encourage parents that way?

Rebecca 24:59
I do. Encourage Parents to go. And if they’re able to, to, to have their own counseling, I think to be your best self for your kid means means being able to attend to some of those things today, I do that often. But if that’s not available, some of these other things that we’re talking about, of whether that’s what the trusted friend or church group or walking with some other adults to try to navigate some of this. Yeah.

Kit 25:36
You also talk about, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, there’s still more that we want to talk about. But with all of this kind of trying to attend and listen and when there’s problems, you also say, you know, something about there can be a lot of judgment with parenting and to not forget, just to enjoy them. Yeah. So Let’s talk about that for a minute. Because I think that’s huge that I wish someone had said that to me and tie them enjoy them.

Rebecca 26:05
Yeah, I was thinking about that even getting ready for today. I was like, I really hope parents don’t just hear another list of things that they have to do. But if they could just take one thing away from this is just love on your kids love, love love on your kids, to delight in them. And to you know, find them curious and, and laugh with them. I especially right now, meeting with families, I’m asking them all the time. What are you guys doing for fun? What When, when, when When’s the last time you connected? what what what’s the last big belly laugh that you guys had together? Because we can get easily so caught up in in the school and the chores and the, you know, future plans and all this kind of stuff that we miss some of those little moments. To just find them funny and curious. Yes and interesting. Yeah, it’s great. And kids need that so much they need it now, especially that they need it so much. So they’ll pick up on the tension around in the room. But bill, they’ll also feel that from you if you’re if you’re pointing out some of those more fun things and just enjoy them.

Kit 27:25
Yeah. So anything that you want to say about this, you know what’s happening right now because I think the you know, anxiety is definitely on the rise for everybody. And it’s, you know, parents are more stressed and kids are more stressed and you know, is there is there a word of counsel or encouragement to parents, you know, with what’s going on with the world right now that you wouldn’t that you would offer?

Rebecca 27:55
Some days, it’s just getting back to the basics. So if it’s feeling really overwhelmed, and You don’t know where to start. Eat something sleep enough breeze and not just say, Oh yeah, breathe, I gotta but like literally exhale. And if you can take care of those three bit, maybe add in Connect, call a friend, talk to somebody. If you can take care of the basics, some of the other stuff is going to feel a little bit more manageable. But if we’re running on empty from other things, and you know, right now, a lot of just the day to day things are a lot harder. And we’re also heaping a lot of guilt on ourselves that they shouldn’t be harder but that we’re out of our routines. So sometimes it is just getting getting back to the basics. And at the end of the day, if this I don’t know if I should be giving permission for this but if the schoolwork doesn’t get done Or the tool or the house is messy, but but you can have some connection with your kids and love on them. Give them a big hug, that’s those those little things matter a lot more than then maybe they feel like they do.

Josh 29:18
I think that’s so good. And I, as a guy who struggles with perfectionism, with work, I think the permission I almost have to ratchet it up. It’s not just permission to eat, sleep, breathe connected really is this is a part of my job. This is part of how I, what I’m what’s required of me in order to be a human being because human beings don’t operate well without these things. And, as opposed to I just need you know, give me five minutes to get some fuel in my body so I can keep going, going going and I’ll eat a little bit of sleep between things and and i think i think COVID-19 for me has been has an opportunity to re address and come back around to Because these things don’t happen naturally, like they did that because the routine is gone, they have to be more intentional. even getting outside for me has become something like, you know, I intention to make sure that every day I go outside because I don’t have to right now I’m working from home so I don’t you know, I can go through the whole day without realizing that I haven’t seen the sun. So well. So any any practical tips kind of, you know, give us a little call to action. So as we as we wrap up this conversation, it’s been so helpful. What final practical tips for any Mom Dad listening, as they’re as they’re wanting to walk them and you’ve given us so much already, but anything else you’d say just practically speaking as we as we can.

Rebecca 30:44
I think right now, we families are spending a lot of time together, but maybe what that time actually looks like can vary whether it’s real connection time or whether it’s kind of everyone in their corners a little bit So making some space to let the talking happen. And not to put pressure on those moments, but to invite into some activities like, like going on a walk or cooking together. You know, normally I say driving time can be such a great time to talk to your team because you’re, you’re not looking right at each other, but you’re both in the same space kind of stuck there together. So finding some kind of natural ways where we’re talking can happen, and it’s kind of folded in into life. Scenes often feel a little bit more comfortable if it’s not so direct, like one to one like that, but, but kind of more like a triangle. Like you guys are both in the same room doing something together, but your focus is on a little bit of something else. And using those moments as a as a natural time to talk

Kit 32:00
That’s good counsel. Because you know, I think also know, getting to know your child and what they wouldn’t appreciate, like, I know that my children are really different. And my older daughter definitely didn’t want to sit across the table and talk to me and have coffee, you know, she wanted to go for a hike or play a game or something, you know. And so knowing your child and knowing what connection is going to work for them, not even what’s going to work for you. Because sometimes, you know, you really, they they will want something different. So I love that just to look at all different kinds of options, both giving them space, and doing something fun or talking but you know, to consider all that good.

Rebecca 32:44
Yeah. Another one that that sometimes can help is reading a book together or watching a movie, something that you’re already doing but using that as an example to talk about things like you were saying earlier, Josh, like oh, yeah, we’re talking about other parents, but in it Like a movie, like you can say, yeah, that character and talk about that definitely that character over there not not anything in real life but but just

Josh 33:09
as long as it’s not during the movie don’t talk

Rebecca 33:16
save it for the credits. That’s another thing a popcorn. Yeah, being able to talk about those characters and and kind of use that as like a playground a little bit to just swing around try out some different ideas. And it’s not real life so it’s not as not as high pressure there but also the the kid can kind of get get some gymnastics and of how they would handle different problems or

Kit 33:45
I love that it’s coming. Yeah, I love that. Then you can actually talk about the issues that might be happening in your teens life or in your life, but it’s not about them and you’re talking about a character in a movie so it’s much safer, because right, no pressure teach the team them through a fictional character that’s much less threatening for them. And then, you know, that’s, that’s that’s a good idea like that.

Rebecca 34:08
And the truth is, rarely is there one right solution. But yeah, and there’s there’s a bunch of different options. So giving, giving your kids more permission to kind of look at those different options and play it out. It’s good.

Josh 34:22
That’s really helpful. Rebecca, thank you so much. This has been so good I, I can take notes over here as a guy who struggled a long time with anxiety and as a parent, really appreciate your insight from the kind of the inside as you walk with kids in the school. So thank you very much for being with us today. Yeah, it’s been good. Lots of good stuff here.

Rebecca 34:44
And we could talk a lot more about it but

Josh 34:47
absolutely good. Yeah. Well, Kitt, would you close this in a in a word of prayer?

Kit 34:52
Yes, yes. Lord, I pray for anybody who’s listening whether it’s a Someone who’s dealing with parents, even if they’re a young adult, or parents who are challenged by what’s going on with their kids, Lord, I just hope that some of these things that Rebecca has shared with us can be helpful. And that we would actually just take time with you God to, to look at our own selves, and ways where we are fearful, where places where we’re anxious, and how we can bring those things to you so that we can be more present with our kids with each other. And, Lord, it doesn’t always have to be serious. I think Rebecca has invited and encouraged us and reminded us that there are there’s work to be done. There are things to talk about and, and resolve but there’s also fun to be had and enjoyment with our kids to also be had so remind us of that, Lord, and thank you that you are there to remind us of what about perfect parent is your best teacher in Jesus name. Amen.